Lets try a new approach

[Go Plainedge!]

Hmmm, these boards seem a little slow lately. It would appear that if there isn't and controversy, people don't want to post.

But, fear not great people of Plainedge, lets try something new.


There are two serious concerns that will arise this coming spring.

1. Get the correct and accurate budget to the people of this community in a format that they will understand.

2. Sparking an interest in voter turnout.

So, put your thinking caps on and post what ideas and thoughts you have on increasing the voter turn out and creatively presenting the budget so that people understand it.

What would you do if you were a board member or an administrator? How would you like to see these things handled.

Discuss.

[frawg88]

'GO PLAINEDGE" WROTE:

“There are two serious concerns that will arise this coming spring.

1. Get the correct and accurate budget to the people of this community in a format that they will understand.

2. Sparking an interest in voter turnout.

So, put your thinking caps on and post what ideas and thoughts you have on increasing the voter turn out and creatively presenting the budget so that people understand it.

What would you do if you were a board member or an administrator? How would you like to see these things handled?”



OK, I’ve been quiet for while hoping we’d get around to a productive exchange, so I’m taking a chance here with some thoughts:

Budget Information

1. First and foremost, I would like to see a change in behavior for this budget process. I would like to see people ask questions without the usual confrontational and accusatory tone, which is totally unnecessary. Case in point, the last BOE meeting which someone else here mentioned– if that woman simply asked her question about the wrestling program for the sake of an answer and a resolution, rather than to be accusatory and demanding, she wouldn’t have invoked the kind of response she did. Also, when the new BOE President was chosen, nasty comments from the audience (which were overheard by many) were uncalled for. I am not championing the Superintendent or BOE because there have been plenty of times that their responses were inappropriate, however, when you’re always being attacked and put on the defensive, I guess unfortunately you get conditioned to react the same way. It needs to stop on both sides. I think if people are civil and demonstrate that they want to be positively involved (rather than just be critical) to come up with a budget that the community will support, we’ll be starting off on a better footing and the quality of the dialogue will be much more productive.

2. People cannot look at the budget only in terms of how it affects taxes. The primary reason for the school district’s existence is educating children, so people must consider the academic performance of the school district and how the budget makes that happen. Do we want to be ranked #1 with Jericho? I’m sure we all do, but that takes resources – for staff (including teachers, administrators, support staff etc.), curriculum, teacher training, teaching materials, library/research services, computer technology, etc. Also, people can’t repeatedly and unrealistically ask to cut the very people who are responsible for the district’s improved academic performance. As “just facts” said about the Public Library staffing – the school district operates with the amount of people it NEEDS – no more, no less – and it’s proven to be what is necessary to put us in the top ranking of school districts. So, if we want to still perform at #1 but we don’t want our taxes to go up as much, then maybe we have to make some hard decisions to reduce certain things which we take for granted. For example, maybe go to state limits on bus transportation, which I remember being mentioned. Transportation is about a $2.5 million dollar cost which could be reduced, but then on the other hand most people work, and they would have to drive their kids to school or have them walk, creating traffic & safety issues. What are the things we are willing or unwilling to give up to curtail tax increases? Are we willing to cut down on the number of extra curricular activities we offer children? Maybe mandate 20 students in a sport or club in order to have it, but then on the other hand, how does that affect scholarship and college acceptance opportunities for students? Revenue for the schools only comes from state aid and the local taxpayer, and the state continually cuts the percentage it contributes each year, thereby putting the additional burden on us. The number of failed budgets this year is a clear message that people do not want to pay more, so we have come to a point where we need to make value judgments and prioritize what we want to offer our students. These are the conversations that need to take place at the meetings BEFORE the budget is put up for a vote. The more people participating in the conversations will insure a bigger segment of the community’s priorities are represented. We should know BEFORE the vote if it is a passable budget, so that we only have to vote ONCE.

3. The community needs to understand (and take seriously) what their children might lose in the event the budget fails again. Conversations must take place between the BOE & community in ADVANCE, about what will be in the contingency budget. We already know the BOE will protect core academic programs, because their job is to educate, and they are bound by the State’s mandated graduation requirements. (Quite frankly, I would never want to see a BOE in Plainedge that did not put education first.) However, the BOE must also realize that the community still values certain extracurricular things, and maybe a contingency budget has to include at least HS varsity sports. So, there needs to be understanding and compromise on both sides for the sake of the children.

4. If people want to really understand the budget details, then more than 20 of them need to come to every budget meeting and get their information (and question the information in a civil manner) first hand. People cannot keep making excuses as to why they can’t come out to meetings, and then blame the school district for not doing more to get information to them. If they cannot make every meeting, then they should read the budget info on the website and be prepared with their questions at the next meeting. If they do not understand the answer they get, then maybe ask to see the information in a different format – whether it be paper handouts or perhaps an overhead visual presentation. Maybe that would lead to additional information or explanations being put in the annual budget booklet that gets mailed to every home, which would then reach more people. If people just criticize the administration or BOE’s efforts for the sake of criticism, then nothing will change; if people use criticism constructively, and offer other suggestions or methods or solutions along with it, the whole atmosphere of the process could be different. I don’t believe anyone, including the BOE or the administration want to see Plainedge go through another year on contingency, so I have to believe they will be open to trying new or different ways to get information out and have more residents become supporters of the school district.


Sparking Interest in Voter Turnout

1. Talk with our neighbors about the positive things going on in the schools and how they affect our children, our community, our quality of life and our home/property values.

2. Have the senior citizens, a large segment of the voting population, attend more school events and tour the buildings to see what their tax dollars are paying for. (Give them FREE admission to plays, concerts and sporting events.)

3. Have some kind of venue for former students to come back to the schools and support the school budget for their younger siblings and their families.

4. The same for parents who are not senior citizen age but whose children have all graduated.

5. Have a combination carnival /academic fair throughout the day on voting day and have a raffle drawing at the close of the voting. (Maybe run by all of the PTA’s). Have children showcase art or science projects so that people understand what the children gain from their support of the budget. Give a ticket to each person who votes, entering them into the drawing to win the grand prize. The prize could be ALL of the money raised at the carnival (minus expenses) which could cover the winner’s school tax bill for the year! Ok, it’s a stretch, but so was raising $548,000 to put back all high school sports in 2005, but it WAS accomplished. (And our HS football team is UNDEFEATED!)


These are just my opinions folks. We all have a right to them. Please respect mine and I will respect yours. Let’s not rehash the past or have to justify ourselves for 20 pages. Let's just throw the ideas out there and hope for the best.

[Go Plainedge!]

Frawg:

If you could seem me now, you would see a standing ovation.

Bravo!!!! I love it. Great ideas especially the voting "fair".

I hope you will go to the coffee hour and share this with Mr. Richman.

Anyone else??

...by the way, it was me that mentioned the tone of voice that the wresting mother started her question. Bad decision on her part.

[justfacts]

Increasing the voter turnout ~ another way to look at it as a desirable goal.

The concept of getting more voters out to pull the lever on election day is a laudable one, one that I favor since all should use there right to vote - and thus provide a more balanced choice of what all want as a result of the vote. This way, special interest groups and secular interests can't override the desire of the majority. It becomes a more democratic way of expressing the will of the majority. I wish that this would regularly occur in Plainedge.

Frawg88's suggestion of a "fair" is an excellent one that would go a long way towards meeting that desirable goal. It might help if we could eventually change "Voting Day" into a holiday, where fun, people mixing, music and games occur (even games of chance, which often draws many participants as frawg88 suggests)

I, for one, would like to see us find ways such as these to eventually get 100% voter participation in Plainedge.

However, when it comes to results in a Plainedge School District election, historical results show that, in a first vote situation, the more voters that turn out, the less is the percentage vote in favor of passing the budget! This is usually because a well favored budget has less controversy and fewer NO voters show up to pull the lever.

It is only when there is considerable objection to the budget that a greater number of voters turn out. Even to the point that a large turn out on the first vote often results in a rejected first Budget! This has been the historical record in Plainedge. Second Budget votes then result in an even greater voter turnout with a very close margin.

It is a situation much like the turnout for Board meetings; The more content the electorate is with what is going on in the School, the fewer attendees at the Board meetings. It is only when there is a "bone of contention" that more people show up at meetings.

This is one of the "facts of life" with regard to the Plainedge community's participation in school affairs - and voting. It may not be an "ideal" way to do things, but it is the way that we do do these things!

So, maybe, just maybe, in order to get next year's Budget passed on the first vote - we should concentrate on having a budget the causes the FEWEST voters to turn out!

That is a wild thought isn't it?

[concerned]

Hi-I created a line a month ago under General Board called Ideas to work on. If anyone can link that all into your thread, it would be great. I shared many ideas too, but not many people responded.

[frawg88]

to "go plainedge" - Thank you.

to "concerned" - Good idea to combine them but I don't know how to link them together other than copying them and posting them one at a time. Maybe the Administrator can handle this?

to "just facts" - Unfortunately, you are correct about the way things are done in Plainedge. It's a shame that controversy is more interesting to most people than taking a genuine interest in the schools and what their children are learning. I don't know if I agree though about trying to get fewer voters out. I think we need to try to change people's thinking to positive motivation instead of negative motivation. After all, Plainedge is only a school district, not a town. The schools are the focal point of our lives, so everyone should feel ownership of them and support them.

[Admin]

Great topic. I'm glad to see some positive communication.

Concerned: I can't move your thread into this one. I can only move threads into other sections and can't combine threads. However, here is the link:

plainedgechat.proboards57.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1127357213

Hope this helps. Keep up the good work everyone!

[justfacts]

frawg88 ~

I agree with you - it IS a shame that that is the way most people react. I have some neighbors that I've tried time and time again to get them to go and vote. They create one "logical" reason after another (my vote doesn't matter; they'll do what they want anyway; etc.; etc.) all for the same effect = they won't vote! Actually, they are intellectually incapable of voting - sad to say!

The statement about getting less people out to vote was made for it's impact only - not a desirable thing to do - I just wish that we could have more people with more viewpoints come out so that we may eventually get more involvement and more diverse and constructive inputs.

[justfacts]

With regard to trying something new in the Budget process.

I've taken out my tax bills for the last few years and looked closely at them. With the year 2000 as a base, I found that my taxes have changed over the past five years as follows;
Town tax: From $2,089.38 to $2,524.84, averaging + 3.93% per year.
Library tax: From $ 213.84 to $ 282.98, averaging + 5.79% per year.
School tax: From $3,494.57 to $5,616.03, averaging +10.03% per year.
Total taxes: From $5,797.79 to $8,423.85, averaging + 7.77% per year.

From this I can see clearly why the increasing rejection of the School Budgets - - - school property tax increases grow faster than any other tax - and at an amount that is a greater multiple of the Consumer Price Index (CPI) than any other tax. The School property tax was 60% of my total taxes, now it is 67% of my total taxes.

While the other taxes are increasing at twice the CPI (average of about 4.86%), the School tax is increasing at four times the CPI (average of 10.03%) Clearly, the School Budget increases can't be explained by "Cost of Living" increases! There is much more at work here! Something that can't be explained by "reassesments", "tax rates" or "declining businesses on the tax rolls".

This leads us, almost forces us, to consider a change in the method of creating a budget for the School District. One that might lead to a passing of the Budget on the first vote!

How about voters giving the School District an idea of the percentage of School property tax increase that would be acceptable - before the budget is prepared? A poll could provide this info.

This way, the District would be truly budgeting! Budgeting to the level of property tax increase that taxpayers are likely to approve at the first shot!

If the District is given the guidelines of 4 times CPI is unacceptable, 3.5 times has a 40% chance of passing, 3.0 times a 50/50 chance, 2.5 times a 70/30 chance and 2.0 times has a 95% chance of passing

- - - or some similar breakdown gotten from a Pre-Budget Survey of the District voters - - -

then a Budget can be made in response to community guidelines for what might be acceptable. These multiples of the CPI are far better than the 1.2 times CPI increase allowed by a Contingency Budget!

Radical thought, isn't it? But it is one that might just work better than what we've been doing.

[frawg88]

“just facts” wrote: “ ….Clearly, the School Budget increases can't be explained by "Cost of Living" increases! There is much more at work here!...”

You’re absolutely right – there is much more to consider when you look at the rate of school tax increases.

The comparison you made, while a premise to consider, is not complete. It does not take into account one major difference between library tax, town tax, and school tax. The library funding and the town funding comes completely from the taxpayers. The school funding comes from the taxpayers and the state. The state used to pay a much larger percentage of the school tax levy than they do now. As their percentage decreased (even though dollars may have increased), the taxpayers percentage increased proportionately. That is something that is completely out of the control of the school district, hence the push to fight Albany for a fairer portion of state aid. Which by the way, we can’t forget about! (And where is all that Lottery money??)

It also does not take into account another thing completely out of the control of the school district, but which also relates to the rate of school tax increases, and that is all the unfunded mandates imposed by the state. One example is the new tests in all the grades (not just 4th & 8th) have an attached cost for grading tests (taking teachers out of the classrooms & hiring subs, processing the tests through BOCES, which charges a fee per test, etc.) Ms. P’Simer reviewed this at a BOE meeting last year and it amounted to several thousand dollars (around $18K-$20K?)

The other thing that has driven the school taxes up is the very significant rise in special education costs, again which the school district has no control over, because they are mandated to comply with federal IDEA regulations. Each year, this is becoming a larger percentage of the total overall school budget. In this case, all decisions on services offered to special needs children, including classroom instruction, additional aides, O/T, P/T, speech services, psychologist & social worker services, testing modifications, out-of district placements (with associated transportation) are determined by the designated Committee on Special Education, and CANNOT be changed by the BOE. So, for example, if it is determined that a special ed child cannot be serviced by our district, the CSE could hypothetically decide on a private, out-of-state placement that could cost over $100,000.00 per year for one child and the taxpayers have NO CHOICE but to pay it.

So yes, you can say you want to keep the tax increase at a certain percentage, but you must understand that there are some things that cannot come out of the budget to get you to that magic number.

Also, consider this. Those of us who have been long time residents know that many years ago past Boards used to do just that - formulate the budgets with a magic number in mind, and then deal with any deficits after the fact. This lead to deficit spending to the tune of $3 million dollars and forced the BOE in 1994 and 1995 to form a Community Budget Advisory Team to cut programs & services to balance the budget. (By the way, deficit spending in a school district is ILLEGAL!) Also, it was later discovered that loans were taken against retirement insurance policies to balance the budget as well, which were never paid back, and on which the district has now incurred hundreds of thousands of dollars in accrued interest. This has been talked about at just about all of the budget meetings in the last several years. (The lawsuit against the insurance company, etc.) My point here is that this could be a very dangerous (and even unrealistic) way to formulate a budget.

I would be interested in seeing the numbers with those uncontrollable and mandated school tax costs or percentages deducted, because that would be a much more accurate comparison.

[justfacts]

frawg88:

Whew! There was a lot in your answer. I'll take an item or two at a time and round out or add to the discussions about them. I hope you'll do the same. The "open dialog" might give a few voters more insight into how the whole process is not as simple as it seems from the outside! Here's the first part of dimensioned details.

Yes, the State tax contribution, or lack thereof, does come into play on the School tax and not on the other taxes. But, assuming for the moment that the School operating costs increased at twice the CPI like the other tax entities, and all the rest of the increase could be laid at the door of the State, let's see what that means. Can that be the source of why the School Property taxes increase at twice the rate of the other entities?

For a difference of increase of 6% per year for five years between the other property taxes and the School property tax, the State contribution would have to equal the property tax and fall 6% per year over 5 years to lay all the blame there. That's a 33.8% (compounded) reduction in the State's contribution that could shift to the taxpayers - IF THE TWO TAXES WERE THE SAME AMOUNT OF DOLLARS - which they are NOT. The State's dollars are but 1/3rd the property owner's amount of dollars.

Since the State to Property proportion of the taxes in the last 3 years was; $10,787,162/$38,782,883 in 2003, $14,638,059/$41,196,363 in 2004 and projected at $14,087,270/$44,052,033 in 2005 - this means the State tax would have to drop by about 3.2 times the amount that the property tax increased to explain the difference!

This is another way of saying that today's State tax contribution would have had to drop to half (48%) of what it was in 2000! - That is totally untrue! - On the contrary, the State's dollar contribution is significantly more than it was in 2000! - - - It just has not grown as fast as the Budget has grown!



While the math says it is true that - - - if the amount of State dollars stays the same while the Budget increases - - - the State's contributory percentage will drop, this is not the cause that can explain why the School property tax has increased an average of 10% per year over the five years while other taxes have increased only 4.8% per year. [/b]

We must face the common arithmetic fact that the State will not increase their contribution by the same percentage per year as we have increased our homeowners mandated contribution per year. The dollars per year from the State will go up slower.

State contributions can affect what the final property tax will be - but the major contributor to the homeowners fourfold increase over the CPI is the increase in the School Budget itself. School Budget costs have risen far faster than the CPI.[/b]

P.S. The money that came into Plainedge from the State "gambling funds" was $1,519,060 in 2003 for a total to Plainedge of $19,710,344 since it began. And last year about $1.8 million was added to that total (despite what Dr. Richman answered when asked this question).

The Lottery funds are not separated from the State Aid - but a part of the whole. So how they were broken down is of little importance to our part of the School Costs - which we pay through the increases in our property tax. It is a specious aside comment to talk about "Lottery Money", where is it?

The plain and simple answer is: It came to us and we have spent it.

P.P.S. I did not suggest keeping the tax increase at a "certain percentage" but as an annually polled multiple of the CPI increase. Both of these items are variable - not fixed - They would reflect changing community ability to pay and changing CPI.

By the way, it looks like the CPI will go from last year's 2.4% to about 3.6% this year. For a very meaningless math statistic - that is a 50% increase in the CPI!

But it does clearly show that using percentage increases, "certain percentages", or State tax percentages of budget, can lead to poor budgeting decisions.

[frawg88]

“just facts”

It looks like you misunderstood me, so let me clarify my comments:

“So yes, you can say you want to keep the tax increase at a certain percentage, but you must understand that there are some things that cannot come out of the budget to get you to that magic number….

…. I would be interested in seeing the numbers with those uncontrollable and mandated school tax costs or percentages deducted, because that would be a much more accurate comparison.”

I was not implying that the unfunded mandates or uncontrollable costs for things like special ed account for the TOTAL school tax increases. I was pointing out that those are some of the things that have CONTRIBUTED to the increases but that we HAVE to pay whether we like it or not. It’s very important that people understand that. I said I would like to see what the annual or average increases have been WITHOUT those costs included, because then you could see how much the costs that ARE within the BOE’s control have affected taxes. Then you would be making a much more accurate comparison, because otherwise your comparison is misleading.

“The state used to pay a much larger percentage of the school tax levy than they do now. As their percentage decreased (even though dollars may have increased), the taxpayers percentage increased proportionately.”

If you see here, I did acknowledge that the states’ dollar contribution has increased although the percentage increase in aid is lower that the total percentage increase of the budget, which means the taxpayers have to make up the difference.


It came to us and we have spent it.

You also misunderstood my question about the Lottery money. I didn’t ask what the DISTRICT did with it. My point was that originally, the state claimed the lottery money would SUPPLEMENT state aid. Instead, they have used the lottery money to REDUCE their contribution to education funding, rather than ADD to it. My question meant, what has the STATE done with it instead?


The first budget coffee hour is approaching soon, so does anyone else have any other ideas besides ours to contribute to this discussion?

[delilah]

Hi Folks I am new to this but I do have a few suggestions for getting the next budget passed.

1) Put back half of Adult Education Classes: I think this was cut in 2004 if I remember it was
a meager sum of $2,500 under Senior Citzen Services. Allow people back into the beautiful buildings we currently have to offer, make them feel proud and have ownership. In the last few years I have seen all age groups feel disconnected and disenfranchised from their fields and schools. No Adult Ed, No Access to AV Box on talent show night, No fields available unless triple forms are to be filled out in advance and no one to tell you that you need to fill out a form twice - for two seasons of the same school year.

2) Stop giving the public inflated budget items such as Item 1060: District Meetings $20,500 I don't think the meetings cost that much given the devotion of Boad of Ed members to keep costs down. I think they probably cost about half that at best. I truly believe this is an inflated item.

3) Have more accurate facts and figures to give to the people. I have seen some of the most outrageous mistakes on school budgets, it has become a real sore point we pay a lot of money to the people making these spread sheet and budget papers why is it done so poorly?

[Go Plainedge!]

Delilah:

Welcome to the boards! I'm sure you'll find it interesting here with a twist from the norm.

Good idea about the adult ed. I strongly believe that if the school and BOE can draw the community into the schools, make them feel like they are a part of the "family" and show that they are interested in giving back to the community then they stand a better chance of passing the budget [dare I say] the first time.

[justfacts]

delilah ~

Welcome to an active role on this site! Your first comments are direct and to the point - not defensive of past activities. That's what many of us are trying to get across -that there are things the community questions in a very direct and forthright manner - but get few responsible answers to them. Instead the focus is diverted to other factors which, when examined as an experienced adult would examine them, don't ring true, or are of such little impact that they don't truly, fully or even partially explain what has been going on with the Budget process. That's why I and others, have taken the issue of poorly prepared and ever-changing budget numbers to the Commissioner of Education.

As adults, voters have said to the Board in a loud and clear way : "Don't Spend so much of our money! Reign it in and tighten it up, that's too much too fast!". Give us a lesser increase!

You have seen a slight area that can be tightened up - the money allocated to District meetings. Good insight!
There are several other areas that a budget skilled person can see and question.

Although you may be new to the Board this obviously doesn't mean that you are new to Budgeting and balancing expenses against an ability to pay.

Your comments about the spreadsheets and errors in the Budget papers are so very true - but the fact is that this Board has used the old hand generated (O.K. - Calculator and Word Processor) methods to make up these Budgets - that's why numbers don't add up. For an enlightening point of what is available to them that they don't use, go to these two sites:

1) Excel Budget Spreadsheet SBM-1, that does correct
Computer additions and shows all Budget Codes and Details: www.emsc.nysed.gov/mgtserv/sbm1ex40.xls
(It has good details for "District Meetings" Costs)

2) General Site for Budget Manuals and Guidelines: www.emsc.nysed.gov/mgtserv/gemsho.htm
(look to requirements for "Fund Balance" reporting)

The major Administrative counter to voter objections has been how well Plainedge has been doing in the Test Scores. Parents and others that talk with the students know just how well they're doing without the need for test score metrics. It is only the Educators vs the State that need, or can properly use those numbers.

Rather than allowing yourself to be distracted by scores from the major issue, which is: - the excessive rate of Property Tax Increases in the past few years (not so much the amount of Budget money itself, but just how large the increases are compared to the CPI each year) - averaging 10.03% per year for 5 years! ; - please review the following sample of "adjustments" made to the grades each and every year.

You will find that comparisons of grades is best left to Albany and the Educators - and viewed with a jaundiced eye by the voters. It is the professionals method of measuring just how well they are doing for us - Bragging Rights, if you will. Personally, I'll stick with talking to the students and gaining some very useful insights as to how well the Schools are doing for the students - as they see it! Over the years, this has led to some very important information and a balanced review of just how challenging and useful the school has been for the students.

Background Info For Test Score Informed Discussions:
Raw Score Conversions, August 2005
TEST Passing(65%) Excellent(85%) Perfect(100%)
Math A ______34________ 64 _________84
Math B ______49 ________73 _________88
Chem _______49 ________74 _________85

As you can see, the scores are adjusted to an ever changing curve. This curve is "normalized" across the State each year for each series of tests - to fit what professionals consider to be - "equalized test results". Using these scores is best left to their own professional mechanizations to prove the point that is wanted that year. Don't take them literally.

Especially since, the results we often get are not the adjusted scores themselves, but what percent of those taking the test got a Passing grade!

Again, welcome to the Forum - don't hesitate to put in your "two-cents" worth at any time - It might be worth Dollars to someone else!

And let's hope that the District will respond to the community this year - and finally recognize that the mandate that they gave to the voters last year was:
"I tell you for the second time - Give me this 13.38% property tax increase (See page 24 of last year's budget) over what you have been giving me - or else I'll cut Programs." ~ ~ ~ That did not fly!