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Post by frawg88 on Sept 19, 2005 20:25:16 GMT -5
"rinx"
No where in my posting did I say the older folks voted NO for the budget. I know for a fact that many more seniors than people expect vote YES year after year (my parents as well). This year's vote was not determined by them but as you said, by people with kids in schools. I do not have a problem with people voting NO because they truly cannot afford tax increases, or because they feel they are not getting what they're paying for, etc. My frustration comes from people who voted NO because they don't like someone, or they think teachers get paid too much, or they want to "teach them a lesson", or most of all because they make a choice based on incorrect information. That's the negativity I was talking about. If more people chose to obtain information first hand, understand things more and not rely on rumors that they hear, then there'd be more constructive conversation going on at budget time and people might just listen to other points of view and explore/consider other suggestions. Then our kids just might not have had to have been the casualties in all of this.
"yruohk" 1) Please pay closer attention. I did not say that anyone who I DISAGREE with should move. What I attempted to express is that people who are perpetually negative and who have nothing positive or productive to contribute should find another town and move since nothing about Plainedge seems to satisfy them or make them happy. The majority of the community is made up of very nice people, however the negativity always seems to cast a shadow over the peace and harmony that could potentially exist. 2) You did not answer my question.
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 19, 2005 20:25:23 GMT -5
Go Plainedge One thing that I think we're missing as far as eliminating the library and using the school as the "public library" is security. This becomes a major issue allowing adults into the school after hours and on weekends I don't understand your concern. We do not have security at the public library, please elaborate. As I mentioned in one of my other posts, I think the budget would have passed if they simply lowered it 1%. With a budget that was $57,000,000 (+-) I don't think that finding $570,000 (+-) would be too difficult and we would not be in this predicament. If you attended any of the meetings before during or after the defeat of the first budget you would not be able to make that statement. Go back to the budget booklet and tell me what you would have cut- nurses? clubs? sports? Saying cutting $570,000 and doing it without cutting programs are two very different things. Elphaba65 Correct, at the public library anyone can enter the building and utilize the services that the library offers. There is constant foot traffic by ANYONE. Take that same foot traffic and allow them to enter the schools, in my opinion, potentially can put children at danger. Anytime you mix strangers from the street and children, in my opinion, creates a recipe for disaster. Can you deny a level 3 sex offender (one actually lives in this community) access to the public library? No. But would you want him/her entering a school where children congregate everyday? There are so many scenarios that could be played out with this simple example. As far as the 1%...I was at the meetings and unfortunately, I don't have the outline from last spring. However, what's easier to do - cut $500,000 or cut over $2 million? To me the answer is logical. As a business person, why would I want to risk having to cut over $2 million when if I really push myself to find where I can trim down, I will only need to lose $500,000? I deal with this scenario every day. YES, it takes money to run a school district. I don't deny that and agree with the statement 100%. When you weigh the two outcomes (Contingency or trimming $500K) and figure that into your decision making process what would you choose?
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 19, 2005 20:33:38 GMT -5
"rinx" No where in my posting did I say the older folks voted NO for the budget. I know for a fact that many more seniors than people expect vote YES year after year (my parents as well). This year's vote was not determined by them but as you said, by people with kids in schools. I do not have a problem with people voting NO because they truly cannot afford tax increases, or because they feel they are not getting what they're paying for, etc. My frustration comes from people who voted NO because they don't like someone, or they think teachers get paid too much, or they want to "teach them a lesson", or most of all because they make a choice based on incorrect information. That's the negativity I was talking about. If more people chose to obtain information first hand, understand things more and not rely on rumors that they hear, then there'd be more constructive conversation going on at budget time and people might just listen to other points of view and explore/consider other suggestions. Then our kids just might not have had to have been the casualties in all of this. Frawg88, do you think that the BOE and Administration try to involve the community as much as they possible can (in a positive manner) to educate them and teach them where the money is being spent? There was an interview on WNBC not too long ago with someone from CW Post. His research showed that budgets have a greater passing success rate when the community is involved and understands CLEARLY where the money is being spent. I think we need to dig too deeply to find correct information and so people get frustrated and become negative towards passing the budget. Then add in some simple (possibly expected) mathematical errors and the skeptics emerge like crazy! "Tell me and I forget, show me and I remember, involve me and I understand"
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Post by frawg88 on Sept 19, 2005 20:52:14 GMT -5
"Go Plainedge"
I do not think they've found a method of community involvement that has been successful, although I have to admit that they provided much more opportunity this year than any other. However, even with more meeting nights offered, very few people came out anyway. If people don't bother to come out, then how can the community be involved and how can they educate them?
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 19, 2005 21:01:11 GMT -5
It's not an easy task. There has to be a way to educate more people, motivate them in a positive manner and not offend them or do it at an inopportune time.
Thinking back, the only mail I remember receiving was when the second vote was upon us and the flyer's mentioned what will be lost if the budget fails.
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Post by concerned on Sept 19, 2005 21:41:43 GMT -5
In answer to GoPlainedge and Elphabe.....I think what was the most disheartening part of the whole process was that many of us in the community did go to BOE meetings, we did ask questions, we did attend coffee hours, we did attend budget meetings and any and every suggestion offered to cut a little here and a little there was just so casually dismissed by all. And, there was no discussion of salaries at the coffee hours. I don't buy JDAVOLA's response to me in an earlier e-mail that said basically it's all too complicated to discuss at a coffee hour. I think Plainedge hit the nail on the head when they mentioned the fact that when people don't have the information or they have wrong information they begin to become skeptics. I'm not even sure why I still care what happens. Every time I say I'm done being invested in what's happening, I decide to get involved again and just have to wonder why. I'm not saying we all have the answers, but there certainly are people in the community who could assist with this whole budget process. Many of us have offered and we've been told that "We used to have a budget advisory committee, but it didn't work so we won't try that again". Hey, every committee is different and every committee can be very successful if the right leader is there to keep everyone on track.
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Post by concerned on Sept 19, 2005 21:42:43 GMT -5
Correction-I should have said in response to Plaindege and Frawg, not Elphabe
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Post by rinx on Sept 20, 2005 14:02:51 GMT -5
"rinx" No where in my posting did I say the older folks voted NO for the budget. I know for a fact that many more seniors than people expect vote YES year after year (my parents as well). This year's vote was not determined by them but as you said, by people with kids in schools. I do not have a problem with people voting NO because they truly cannot afford tax increases, or because they feel they are not getting what they're paying for, etc. My frustration comes from people who voted NO because they don't like someone, or they think teachers get paid too much, or they want to "teach them a lesson", or most of all because they make a choice based on incorrect information. That's the negativity I was talking about. Then enough wasn't done to educate these people. It would also be in the best interests of the admin if at board meetings they didn't come across as nasty. Example, I came to my 1st board meeting early on last year. My question was met with a big freaking attitude. I wasn't nasty or accusatory but got a real attitude back from 2 members in particular. Neither of whom I'd ever met before. If more people chose to obtain information first hand, understand things more and not rely on rumors that they hear, then there'd be more constructive conversation going on at budget time and people might just listen to other points of view and explore/consider other suggestions. Then our kids just might not have had to have been the casualties in all of this. That's the rub in this. The kids were used as pawns. That's what irrates me and everyone else. Right or wrong, most of the community see's it as waste to have 2 or 3 assistants to the super. Don't tell us there was no place else to cut besides the kids. The administrative side needed to take a hit before the kids did. That didn't happen. Everyone I've spoken with has had it with some of the current members of the BOE and will vote for Mickey Mouse before re-electing them.
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Post by honebee on Sept 20, 2005 14:28:37 GMT -5
Rinx, I can't agree with you more. I went to my first BOE meeting on the 15th and the attitudes were awful. There was a definite tone of their superiority and intellect over ours. Yes, the administration is too top heavy. You figure out how much we are paying them and tell me where the money can't be better spent. I don't appreciate BOE members, etc. talking to taxpayers who pay their salaries as if we don't have a mind or as if we should just agree with them and never have a thing to say. It's time that this community spoke. We have to elect people whose agenda is the well-being of our community whether it be hard-working moms and dads, kids losing programs that they love or the elderly who don't know how they can live on L.I. We also need to elect people that have respect for us. They either sit there and never say boo about anything or they insult us. Some of the people (maybe BOE in disguise) are insulting on this Board. To think that adults can act like this is beyond me.
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 20, 2005 15:20:53 GMT -5
This has been a long time problem. There are 4 current members that I would like to see replaced. One was just voted in.
I do like to give credit where credit is due. It requires a lot of personal time that not many people are able to afford these days - for that I credit them for their time. So, the problem is who will be able to run against these people? That's why some run in an election unopposed.
By the way, I was informed (possible with misinformation) that we are paying for the BOE and upper Admins high speed internet access at home.
Is that true or was that cut with the contingency budget?
By the way Rinx...aren't the kids always the pawns? A bit hypocritical to take it out on them. It's a shame.
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Post by rinx on Sept 20, 2005 16:29:05 GMT -5
Yes, It really stinks that the kids have always been used as pawns. It was that way when we were kids and now they're still serving the same garbage to us as parents. (It must be BOE 101) When the going gets tough cut the kids programs instead of any admin positions, wages or perks. Mind numbing games being played at the expense of many great kids. Since it hasn't been mentioned on this board... How about a hand for the RD Varsity Football team beating Wantagh on Saturday...WTG! They Earned that victory in more ways than one. This has been a long time problem. There are 4 current members that I would like to see replaced. One was just voted in. I do like to give credit where credit is due. It requires a lot of personal time that not many people are able to afford these days - for that I credit them for their time. So, the problem is who will be able to run against these people? That's why some run in an election unopposed. By the way, I was informed (possible with misinformation) that we are paying for the BOE and upper Admins high speed internet access at home. Is that true or was that cut with the contingency budget? By the way Rinx...aren't the kids always the pawns? A bit hypocritical to take it out on them. It's a shame.
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Post by justfacts on Sept 20, 2005 16:46:45 GMT -5
rinx, Go Plainedge!, concerned, frawg88 and honebee have collectively shown of this last page of this post that there are many things that they agree about and they have many common concerns.
On voting: NO votes because of revenge toward someone, or because they think teachers get paid too much, or wanting to "teach a lesson", or because they have incorrect information; Both rinx and frawg88 express these concerns in nearly an identical manner. Don't we all agree that none of these give a reasonable basis for voting NO?
I, for one, don't approve of these reasons to vote NO and do not use them and will not use them. I hope many of us don't base our vote on anything other than our confidence in the reasonableness of the budget itself, as Go Plainedge! has said is her/his method.
YES votes are not listed in these posts often, and because the only "conditioned reflex" comments to vote YES on the budget despite the lack of a new budget, have been advocated often in jdavola's posts. This has almost caused some to reject YES votes as a negative reaction to being told what to do before a budget is available an issue to discuss.
But one thing I have noticed - the issues behind why some one should have voted YES on these past budgets has not been addressed. The only rational complaint I've seen posted is the reason why both should not have been voted down - it harms the children.
This is also a thing that we all seem to agree upon and we all seem to think this should not happen again. We just seem to bicker between ourselves as to whose fault it is. Let's move on from that point and look toward next year.
So far, the implied reason given for voting YES is "that it was the best that could be presented". We do know that there is a large portion of the voters who did not believe that to be true. (let's not digress into what "could have beens") Rather than rejecting their belief off-hand, blaming it on misinformation, non-attendance at meetings, incorrigible negativity, etc. let's use a modified approach. Use the "core" of last year's budget foundation to focus on the absolute minimum necessities of the budget for this coming year.
Can we even agree to use these forum discussions during the coming pre-budget period to discuss what has also been commonly expressed - a need to have wider and greater community participation in knowing the pre-budget value decisions and the information behind those decisions?
This forum can be used to supplement meeting attendance, coffee hours, and other talks. It offers a solution to the "available time concurrency" problem of meetings. We might even begin to come to a common agreement and understanding of what the absolute minimum budget needs will be for next year!
From there we might bring up and discuss the desired "outer rim" programs, or even "inner rim" programs and their relative importance and need to the community and the Administration. Remembering always that it is the Board how will weight these items and approve and add them to the Budget.
Certainly, time constraints can't be an issue for not considering suggestions from the community. And another desired goal, greater community involvement (sans personal confrontations, verbal jabs and hostilities) can be achieved.
By having this Forum begin focus on coming budget issues today, we will have a long period for community awareness and comments about next year's budget. It will also give a record of these discussion's for those that join as "johnny come lately".
This way, the heat of discussing old issues/comments need not overwhelm the present discussions, and we might better learn why certain decisions have come about. And we might better respect the Board's decisions when they present the first budget package to the community. Maybe both elements, community and Board, will enjoy and benefit from adult-adult exchanges on this Forum.
Can we agree to cooperatively use this Forum for that purpose?
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Post by concerned on Sept 20, 2005 21:15:23 GMT -5
Just Facts wrote: "By having this Forum begin focus on coming budget issues today, we will have a long period for community awareness and comments about next year's budget. "
I agree but I think we really need to petition at the BOE meetings that the coffee hours and budget meetings are not just for them to pass on information to us, but for them to truly give consideration to our suggestions. Otherwise, it is all for nothing.
The other thing I was thinking is that we should each make a commitment to find 20 people who didn't vote last year and contact them now that their vote really makes a difference. If we could even work with the BOE on this now, imagine the turnout we could get. Let's be proactive and make the rest of Long Island say "Wow! What did Plainedge do this year to double their voter turn-out"! I'm sure the BOE would at least support an ad hoc committee to work with the PTA, the PFT and other interested residents to begin a major voting campaign similar to what they do prior to Presidential Elections.
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Post by justfacts on Sept 21, 2005 7:56:30 GMT -5
Concerned wrote: "The other thing I was thinking is that we should each make a commitment to find 20 people who didn't vote last year and contact them now that their vote really makes a difference. If we could even work with the BOE on this now, imagine the turnout we could get. Let's be proactive and make the rest of Long Island say; Wow! What did Plainedge do this year to double their voter turn-out!" GREAT idea! Now IS the time to be getting ready for next year. I have a neighbor that has 5 voting age adults in the house who, despite much pressure from me last year, would not turn out to vote. "What's the use?" was their typical reply - "they're going to have the budget approved any way you look at it - if not on the first vote, then the second vote! I'm not going to waste my time going there." I believe just one might be against, the others for, the budget. These types of apathetic persons might tend to yield more to more than just one person getting on their case. Or even, by finding out that voting is the popular "in-thing" to do. A pro-voting community attitude might just be the thing that would make the tide change! And it is not too early to start a pro-vote attitude in Plainedge.I'll work with you toward that goal. Some articles in local School/Library newsletters - posters or flyers - even just Forum "threads" having info and topics that might be used at dinner time conversation starters with the children. The children could the spread the ideas to others - who, in turn spread it to the parents that didn't vote. Window stickers or posters (tee-shirts?) that say; " I voted last year - and am proud that I did!" , or even; ;D " I did it last year - did you?" might also help. I'd be willing to share the cost of having some professionally made items created. Anyone else?
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Post by concerned on Sept 21, 2005 8:27:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the support and the good ideas. I'm still hoping someone from the BOE reads this and likes the idea enough to bring it up. If not, we'll have to get some people at the next BOE meeting to bring it up and get the ball rolling! I think it should be a joint effort....including putting out information as to how to become registered to vote. Back to School Night would be a great time to pass out a flyer to everyone.
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