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Post by techie on Sept 23, 2005 11:41:40 GMT -5
In Reply to HONEBEE Post #54 Sept.19,05 4:38 pm.
We in this area do not have businesses to help the tax levy. BUT, we DO have a higher density of voters. If we do start a campaign of voter awareness we could get votes needed to "share the wealth". Weather this works or not, we have to find a way to get more voters to turn out for ALL voting issues.
I also think that we have to find a way to avoid those $100,000.00 "mistakes" that we have.
Thanks for being truly concerned.
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Post by frawg88 on Sept 24, 2005 21:04:19 GMT -5
“just facts” said… “But one thing I have noticed - the issues behind why some one should have voted YES on these past budgets has not been addressed.”
LEAPIN’ LIZARDS!
The reason people should vote YES for our school budgets is to EDUCATE kids!!! This is why I keep bringing up the fact that no one is discussing Plainedge test scores or any other academic accomplishments in our school district. Why do we vote on a school budget? To fund EDUCATION! Why do we want to petition Albany for more state aid? To fund EDUCATION! Why should we make the effort to go out to a BOE meeting at night? To find out about EDUCATION! If the community does not value EDUCATION, then there will never be enough support for the schools.
Our kids are outperforming the wealthiest school districts in Nassau County and Long Island even though we spend the least per pupil. There are signs all over the community that say “PLAINEDGE PROUD.” If we don’t recognize student achievement as the most important thing, then can someone please tell me what the heck we’re all so proud of?
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Post by frawg88 on Sept 25, 2005 8:26:31 GMT -5
To: “rinx”, “honebee”
“Yes, the administration is too top heavy. You figure out how much we are paying them and tell me where the money can't be better spent. I don't appreciate BOE members, etc. talking to taxpayers who pay their salaries as if we don't have a mind or as if we should just agree with them and never have a thing to say.”
1) Is the statement you made above that the administration is too top heavy an opinion or a fact? If it is a fact, can you provide the data to support that, i.e. comparison with other districts: - Number of administrators including title and job responsibilities (total and by building) - Number of employees & children in the district (total and by building) - Test scores as compared to Plainedge I’m sure many people would be interested to know.
2) It looks like you are under the impression BOE members get paid. The first page of the school calendar states, “The Board of Education consists of seven residents who are elected by the people and serve without salary for three year terms of office.”
If people in the community don’t like particular BOE members (and there’s a couple I don’t care for either), then they can vote in whoever they want every year. But as "go plainedge" said, not many people step up to the plate to take non-paying volunteer jobs that require a lot of time and effort.
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Post by rinx on Sept 25, 2005 8:39:41 GMT -5
Frwag, I said, that I was upset that all the cuts were to the kids and not on the admin side. I didn't say anything about them being top heavy. I basically asked how many assistants a super needed. It has nothing to do with other districts. It has to do with this ours. Assistant to the assistant...sounds like a comedy routine. Think about it. To: “rinx”, “honebee” “Yes, the administration is too top heavy. You figure out how much we are paying them and tell me where the money can't be better spent. I don't appreciate BOE members, etc. talking to taxpayers who pay their salaries as if we don't have a mind or as if we should just agree with them and never have a thing to say.” 1) Is the statement you made above that the administration is too top heavy an opinion or a fact? If it is a fact, can you provide the data to support that, i.e. comparison with other districts: - Number of administrators including title and job responsibilities (total and by building) - Number of employees & children in the district (total and by building) - Test scores as compared to Plainedge I’m sure many people would be interested to know. 2) It looks like you are under the impression BOE members get paid. The first page of the school calendar states, “The Board of Education consists of seven residents who are elected by the people and serve without salary for three year terms of office.” If people in the community don’t like particular BOE members (and there’s a couple I don’t care for either), then they can vote in whoever they want every year. But as "go plainedge" said, not many people step up to the plate to take non-paying volunteer jobs that require a lot of time and effort.
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Post by rinx on Sept 25, 2005 8:53:07 GMT -5
Out of curiosity....Were you one of those in attendance when we were being told how the 380K was being restored that booed the restoration of academic clubs? I was there..the majority, I'd say 99.8% of those there booed. Honestly, I was embarrassed for the community. Everyone touts the test scores and the academics, as they should. It's something to be proud of. I know I am. Those kids and their parents should be cheered for their acheivements. They are the ones putting Plainedge on the academic map on Long Island. “just facts” said… “But one thing I have noticed - the issues behind why some one should have voted YES on these past budgets has not been addressed.” LEAPIN’ LIZARDS! The reason people should vote YES for our school budgets is to EDUCATE kids!!! This is why I keep bringing up the fact that no one is discussing Plainedge test scores or any other academic accomplishments in our school district. Why do we vote on a school budget? To fund EDUCATION! Why do we want to petition Albany for more state aid? To fund EDUCATION! Why should we make the effort to go out to a BOE meeting at night? To find out about EDUCATION! If the community does not value EDUCATION, then there will never be enough support for the schools. Our kids are outperforming the wealthiest school districts in Nassau County and Long Island even though we spend the least per pupil. There are signs all over the community that say “PLAINEDGE PROUD.” If we don’t recognize student achievement as the most important thing, then can someone please tell me what the heck we’re all so proud of?
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 25, 2005 12:27:21 GMT -5
It is NOT proven ANYWHERE that spending more money will increase the educational results from the students.
There MUST be a fine balance between the two. Smart money management while still striving for the common goals will yield the greatest results.
Simply throwing money at a problem does NOT solve anything. The latest test results are something the students AND teachers should be very proud of. No administration or BOE member should take any credit for those test results.
With the two meetings I have attend so far this season, I have learned of two very expensive and costly mistakes by the administration that we will have to pay for.
Smart and wise money management will make this endeavor a great success.
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Post by frawg88 on Sept 25, 2005 20:43:29 GMT -5
“rinx” wrote:
“I said, that I was upset that all the cuts were to the kids and not on the admin side. I didn't say anything about them being top heavy. I basically asked how many assistants a super needed. It has nothing to do with other districts. It has to do with this ours. Assistant to the assistant...sounds like a comedy routine. Think about it.”
"rinx" My post was to both you and "honebee" (who mentioned top heavy.)
I’m confused though – Whose job title is assistant to the assistant? The school district organization chart on the website (www.plainedgeschools.org) shows the 5 central administrative positions and what they are responsible for. I don’t understand the reference to a comedy routine. Am I missing something?
Also, I was at that meeting and was NOT a person who booed restoration of academic clubs. Both that meeting and the one after it were embarrassing.
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Post by frawg88 on Sept 25, 2005 21:42:36 GMT -5
“Go Plainedge” wrote:
“It is NOT proven ANYWHERE that spending more money will increase the educational results from the students. There MUST be a fine balance between the two. Smart money management while still striving for the common goals will yield the greatest results. Simply throwing money at a problem does NOT solve anything. The latest test results are something the students AND teachers should be very proud of. No administration or BOE member should take any credit for those test results.
With the two meetings I have attend so far this season, I have learned of two very expensive and costly mistakes by the administration that we will have to pay for. Smart and wise money management will make this endeavor a great success." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I’m just tired, but I also don’t understand the statement about throwing money at a problem. I also don’t think I said that spending more money will increase educational results. I said that we are getting excellent results (i.e.: #1 in 4th grade math, etc.) by spending LESS THAN ALL OTHER DISTRICTS, so there has to be some degree of smart money management going on. (Yes, I do agree that mistakes should be minimal.)
Students and teachers and PARENTS deserve credit for the test results, but if you really believe the BOE and administration do not play a big role in making this happen, then you do not understand how the school district works. Briefly, it’s the BOE that sets the mission & goals for the district. They hire the Superintendent to run the schools & accomplish those goals. He continually reports to the BOE on what is being done to accomplish them and they evaluate whether or not he has achieved the desired results. The Superintendent hires his administrative personnel. He and the 2 Assistants for Curriculum (1 for K-5 and 1 for 6-12) choose the programs that are offered (including elective courses and extracurricular programs), oversee the writing or revision of curriculum & alignment with the NYS standards, choose textbooks, hire staff (including directors, principals, teachers and support staff), train the staff, evaluate the staff and decide whether or not to award tenure, analyze student test data, etc. The Assistant in the Business Office, with the input of the Superintendent & all other administrative staff, develops the budget necessary to accomplish the BOE goals. He/she has to make sure that as much of every tax dollar as possible is spent on instruction. He/she also makes sure that the school facilities are adequate, safe and conducive to learning. The Technology person chooses all the instructional hardware and software used by the children & teachers to accomplish the BOE goals, manages the network databases which include student data, test score data, middle school and high school class scheduling, libraries, etc. So, while the BOE & administration do not physically teach in the classroom, they DO decide WHAT gets taught, HOW, and BY WHOM.
The Tuesday night BOE meetings rather than the Thursday night meetings are where you find out most of this information.
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 26, 2005 7:39:02 GMT -5
My interpretation of your statement "The reason people should vote YES for our school budgets is to EDUCATE kids!!!" is that people should vote yes to any budget just because it will help the kids.
Is that what you meant?
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Post by frawg88 on Sept 26, 2005 20:31:45 GMT -5
“Go Plainedge”
Good question. No, I do not think we should vote for ANY budget – it should be a responsible budget. (And, I believe we should only have ONE budget vote.) I think we should attend every budget meeting to really understand why expenditures are necessary, what costs are out of the district’s control and how the budget relates to the district goals (meaning the education our kids are getting).Very few people do that. (Have you ever seen 4,000 voters show up at a budget meeting? It’s more like 20.) So, the vast majority of voters make a decision based on insufficient or incorrect information, rumors, or simply an opinion. Plus, we all know people who feel the only power they have to protest cost of living increases at home (for gas, insurance, milk, etc.) is in the school voting booth, so many of them vote NO out of frustration. And of course, I do not want to minimize that there are those who really are struggling financially.
If LOTS of people DID come out during the ENTIRE budget process, it’s much more likely that their legitimate concerns would be heard and get more consideration BEFORE the initial budget vote. Then, if they understand what goes into the budget and why, AND they feel their questions and concerns were addressed, they would make their choice with a totally different mindset. There would still be NO votes, but I optimistically believe that there would be a lot more YES votes. I like the quote about involvement, but in this case it’s more appropriate to say, IF I GET INVOLVED I WILL UNDERSTAND. The effort has to be made on both sides.
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Post by concerned on Sept 26, 2005 21:38:50 GMT -5
Frawg88-I really do understand what you are saying, but how do you respond to the fact, as I have stated elsewhere on this post, it appeared that some of those budget meetings were all about "sales". Let me tell the community what I need them to know to swing this vote to "yes". No discussions about salary, even though the third budget meeting implied that it would be discussed. No response to people who sent out countless e-mails, asked countless questions, made many suggestions on how things could be trimmed so that the budget would pass. It was as if their minds were already made up. The outer circle being cut....another thing that was stated by the BOE and admin. continuously throughout the process. They can say they were true to their word and did what they said they would do. But, why? Why can't we get a community committee for budgetary matters. I'm not suggesting the BOE doesn't have the answers....I'm suggesting the BOE, the Admin., and the community working together could come up with some dynamite answers and then the votes would be "yes".
I think you (or ELPHABA) is right. One vote and one vote only. It's got to be better than seeing the same vote put up twice. I think it's viewed as an insult to so many people. People feel that a message was given to do something about the budget when it failed. Instead, they look at it as if nothing was done and as if that outer ring was all just a threat. It was a choice to cut from that circle, and perhaps an unconscious threat, but certainly it was a choice.
I don't recall any conversations with the community at the end of the first vote being read where everyone begged people to put the same budget back up for a vote. I recall the admin. and BOE immediately leaving the gym. You may not have been the one who mentioned that statement, but it did strike me as odd.
If people attended enough of the meetings and BOE meetings, they would know that a proposal was made mid-winter to only have one vote and many BOE members said they didn't want to have two votes but they definitely didn't want to have their hands tied. So, they voted to keep the process as it is and no it would be their decision to put it up for a re-vote.
The budget meetings could work this year, but will the Admin. and BOE come in with their minds already made up? If so, I'm not interested in attending any more meetings.....if it can be some level of two-way communication and some suggestions.....I'm all for it. But, SOME of the ideas have to be taken or no one is going to want to come back for these meetings in the future. And, clearly, the BOE and Admin. sure spent a lot of time trying to educate people. I just hope they are open to educating themselves that it takes a "community" to raise a school district, not just those on the Board.
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 27, 2005 8:22:47 GMT -5
Frawg:
I agree with everything you said with the exception of one vote.
I'm OK with two votes as long as the second budget submitted has been adjusted. It's almost like a barometer for the BOE and administration. If the first one fails then they know where the community stands. They can then make the adjustments and resubmit it to the community.
The problem with two votes is when the Admin and the BOE think that they will take a gamble and submit the same budget to the community and then try to rally community to vote yes for the same budget that just failed.
It almost like buying a car and the dealer says I have this wonderful car. It has:
P/W P/Locks Leather seats P/Mirror
...and it costs $40,000. So you tell the dealer "no, come back with a better price".
He comes back with :
P/W P/Locks Leather seats P/Mirror
and the new and improved price of the car is $40,000. Would anyone buy that car?
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Post by frawg88 on Sept 27, 2005 20:22:45 GMT -5
"go plainedge"
You have just revealed a fundamental problem in passing our school budgets by saying,
“I'm OK with two votes as long as the second budget submitted has been adjusted. It's almost like a barometer for the BOE and administration. If the first one fails then they know where the community stands. They can then make the adjustments and resubmit it to the community.”
I’m not OK with it because the community should let the BOE and administration know where they stand BEFORE the budget is submitted, NOT AFTER IT FAILS!!! Doing that just creates anger and costs the taxpayers money for a re-vote, so why on earth do we want to keep repeating the same mistake? To have 20 people come out to budget meetings and 500 people come out after the budget fails to protest what’s being cut seems so illogical to me. That’s why I keep saying that large numbers of residents (I mean hundreds) need to come to the budget meetings to understand what goes into the budget and have their concerns addressed during the whole 5-6 month budget process. Then the BOE & administration could make adjustments to assure that the budget would pass on the first vote. By adjustments I mean a bottom line dollar figure or percentage reduction because a hundred people will have a hundred different ideas of what they would want cut from the budget, and with specifics you will never please everyone.
If the community is OK with voting no the first time and yes the second time after it’s reduced, (which is all about the bottom line number anyway), then it will eventually force the BOE & administration to inflate the budget the first time only to reduce it to what they really need the second time. Do we really want that? Or do we want to feel confident that the first budget is a responsible one that we can support?
“concerned”
elphaba is correct – there was a meeting after the first budget failure (I remember it in the BOE’s meeting room, not the gym) where probably 95+% of the attendees insisted that the same budget be put up (myself included). It was a long and emotional meeting and the BOE ultimately voted 7-0 to put up the same budget.
I don’t think a budget committee of a dozen or 20 people is the answer, because a community committee is advisory only and the BOE would still make the ultimate decision. I still believe that if large numbers of people show up to the budget meetings with GOOD INTENTIONS, it would force a lot more listening on both sides.
I don't know why you had so much trouble getting questions answered. If someone couldn't answer a question they always referred me to the person that could.
(I also still don't know what you mean by discussing salaries. Is it that you want to know what everyone's salary is?)
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Post by Go Plainedge! on Sept 27, 2005 21:41:30 GMT -5
Frawg:
Its a tough predicament. Technically you're right about wasting time and money with a second vote. However, I don't believe the BOE likes to listen to the community. I get the impression that they feel the community has no clue what they are talking about and that they (the BOE) know better. They "hear" us when we speak but choose not to "listen". So, instead of taking the advise of the people they represent, they submit the budget they feel will pass....only to ultimately fail the first go-around.
In terms of inflating the "first budget", I stated that I believe this will happen in May ( in a previous post). I will guess that there will be about a 12% "first budget" that will be voted down, reduced to 8% or 9% and then passed on the second go-around. Meanwhile, the second budget it the ideal budget they wanted in the first place and it was approved because people believe they are getting a bargain.
So the question that arises is....how do you solve or (better yet) STOP this issue?
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Post by concerned on Sept 28, 2005 6:20:05 GMT -5
Frawg88-I feel like we just keep repeating ourselves to each other and we are just never going to agree. You think if more people show up, the BOE and Admin. will have to listen to people about the budget. I thought so last year too. But, it just doesn't seem to work that way. I stand by my statement that I think it's all a sales technique. They'll fill our head with propoganda and expect us to support the budget and urge others to support the budget. I guess I am to idealistic. I did think that if the members in attendance at the budget meetings and at the BOE meetings had suggestions and made sound ones that they would be looked at.
I do recall the meeting about the second budget going up for a vote. If I'm not mistaken, it was a work session and the BOE wasn't going to allow any comments and the community got so upset they opened it up for 30 minutes of questions. Yes, the people there did overwhelmingly state "put the same one up for a re-vote" but there weren't more than 40 people in attendance and I, for one, never got a chance to say anything and it seemed pointless to fight it. I believe a couple of BOE members, particularly Raymond, challenged that he was uncomfortable with putting it back up. But, ultimately it was a 7-0 Vote. And, that, again is fundamentally an issue. It appear almost every vote is 7-0. It has only been the recent meeting at the election of the officers for the board, that I finally saw a dissenting vote, when it was NOT a 7-0 vote for the Board VP. I recall discussion about the cutting of the nurses positions, but again, that ultimately led to everyone agreeing to still just having a part-time nurse shared by two schools, despite the pleas from the community.
In regard to the salaries, yes, I am saying I think there should be an explanation of the salaries and benefits. Better to address the issue head on than have the community make their own assumptions about things and ultimately vote NO. Besides, if the BOE and Admin. are comfortable giving out these salaries, they should be more than comfortable addressing the issues head on.
I know that I HAVE to go to the budget meetings next year, or else I won't know what's going on. But, I will have a very hard time just sitting and being preached too. I am only suggesting that perhaps before their minds are made up about everything, they spend some time asking for the communities' thoughts.
Thanks to you and Plainedge for continuing to discuss an important matter.
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